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salut
petite histoire dans Poker Mindset sur le débat « faut il bluffer les fish ». Faut il raise les donk bet.
A costly mistake that many players make is that of projection: assuming that our opponents think the way we think.
Consciously or otherwise, we will project our own logic and thought process onto our opponents, even though we have no evidence to assume they think the same way we do. In fact, we might do this even when we have evidence to the contrary.
For example, consider a hand from a no-limit tournament as seen from the point of view of a decent player whom we will call Martin. His opponent in this hand is a weak player named Simon. Martin has a slightly above-average stack, while Simon’s is below average but not yet dangerously low.
Martin open raises from the cutoff with a standard raise holding Q-T suited, and Simon calls from the big blind. The flop comes 9-8-4 rainbow, giving Martin a gutshot straight draw and two overcards. Simon opens with a bet about half the size of the pot. Martin concludes that Simon is making a probing bet with a weak made hand in order to see where he stands, probably holding an 8 or a 9. Martin decides he is probably behind but is also likely to have a lot of outs and good Implied odds, so he calls.
The turn is a 7, which gives Martin an open-ended straight draw, but more important, probably hasn’t helped Simon. He does not think that Simon’s play so far indicates the possibility of J-T, two pair or a set. Simon makes a weak-looking bet of about a third of the pot, which Martin reads as a scared bet. He decides that the best play would be to make a large raise. He reasons that Simon wouldn’t risk his entire tournament life with a weak hand on a scary board, and would probably give Martin credit for a straight, set or overpair. If he had read the situation wrongly and Simon did have a set or two pair, la-would still have eight outs to the straight.
Martin re-raised about twice the size of the pot, a raise large enough that Simon would not have the odds to chase a straight or a flush. Simon thought for about 10 seconds and then called. The river was a blank, an off-suit deuce, and Simon checked. Simon was now short stacked and pot-committed. Martin felt there was no chance he could bet Simon out of the pot, so he checked behind. Simon showed Q-9 and took down the pot with his pair of nines. « How could he possibly call that turn raise, » Martin muttered to his neighbor as the next hand was dealt.
Now let’s look at the same hand from Simon’s point of view. He is a casual player who plays poker mainly for fun. He plays in this tournament when he has $50 to spare, hoping that one day he will get lucky and have a big payday. He tries to play good poker, but lacks the understanding or experience to make the right plays.
In this hand, he is dealt Q-9 in the big blind. When Martin raises and everyone else folds, he considers that he has two big cards and so can play. He has already paid his big blind, so it would be a shame to fold this reasonable-looking hand without even seeing the flop. The flop comes 9-8-4, which looks like a great flop to Simon. He has top pair and decides to bet. He doesn’t really look at how much he’s betting and simply grabs a few chips from his stack. Martin calls.
A seven comes on turn, which means Simon still has top pair. He bets some more chips and then sees Martin make a big raise. Simon doesn’t really know what Martin has and still likes his top pair, so he calls. Simon checks the river with the intention of calling the rest of his chips if Martin bets again. Martin checks, and Simon is delighted to win such a big pot.
Do you see where Martin went wrong in this hand? He automatically assumed that Simon thought in the same way he did. He pictured what he would do in Simon’s position and then projected that picture onto Simon, who in reality wasn’t thinking terribly hard at all and certainly
Wasn‘t clever enough to make the « correct laydown » on the turn. In effect, Martin out-thought himself, making a sophisticated play that went completely over his opponent’s head.
Assuming your opponent thinks the way you do is a significant mistake, and one that you should be especially wary of when playing against Weak opposition. Instead of thinking about what you would do in a particular situation, consider what you know about your opponent and Iry and imagine what he would do. It seems obvious, but it is easy to forget in the heat of battle.
ca veut pas dire que je pense qu’il ne faut jamais le faire, mais je pense que c’est tellement du vécu pour beaucoup de personnes cette situation… parfois, Simon montre meme un 4… et la
L’exemple montre un board qui n’est pas scary pour un fish, mais quand on cbet un board Axx r face à un 50/10 il fold très souvent car il a peur de l’As même si nimporte quel reg sait que nous cbettons 100% de notre range sur ce type de board. Donc bluffer avec une cbet face à un fish est EV++ dans ce spot alors que c’est ev slightly + face à un reg.
De même les flush card terrorisent certains fish et leur font folder beaucoup de leur weak pair. Exemple double barreler un fish sur un board Qxx two tone lorsque la turn apporte la flush fonctionne très bien.
Cela marche beaucoup moins si le board est Axx two tone, car barrel une turn flush card ne fait pas folder un As même faible dans les mains du fish.Sur certains fishs qui call 2 barrel mais give up river beaucoup les Axx ragged board sont bons à 3barreler car les fish finissent par folder un weak As à la river.
ouais un petit cbet sur un board as high IP face à un fish, je pense que tt le monde est ok pour dire que c’est bon
mais semi bluff raise les donkbet sous pretexte qu’on a un peu d’equity (GS + 2over par ex), ca mene souvent à de la frustration du type « putin mais quel con de call mon raise avec 3e paire sur ce board drawy » quand on vient au showdown. C’est un leak mental peut etre mais quesque c’est frustrant.
ah je sens que tu as tenté un move dans ta dernière session face à un fish et il a call avec bottom paire ?
no pas today lol
mais gt en train de lire poker mindset, et je me suis dit putin tellement vécu cette situation
tout y est, on essaye de jouer le fish dans les blindes avec une bonne main, il call, il donk bet, on raise avec de l’équity, on perds un gros pot
ca veut pas dire que c’est ev-, dépends de bcp de facteurs, mais en tt cas je pense que c’est une situation ultra vécue par tt le monde
-ywouat- said
salutpetite histoire dans Poker Mindset sur le débat « faut il bluffer les fish ». Faut il raise les donk bet.
Ça dépend.
Moi je retiens juste que le fish s’appelle Simon.
Coïncidence? Je ne pense pas.
pifno said
Moi je retiens juste que le fish s’appelle Simon.Coïncidence? Je ne pense pas.
ouhhh, tu vas avoir des problèmes toi! lol
pifno said
Moi je retiens juste que le fish s’appelle Simon.Coïncidence? Je ne pense pas.
Bon je ne résiste pas à un petit Bragg de fish bluffing
Vilain 29/7
No Limit Texas Holdem €0.15/€0.30
Ongame – 6 players
Converted with HandConverter.frStacks:
UTG (€14.47)
MP (€78.42)
CO (€7.15)
BTN – Hero (€33.18)
SB (€44.14)
BB (€20.97)Preflop: (€0.45, 6 players) Hero is BTN with
1 fold, MP calls €0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to €1.20, SB calls €1.05, BB calls €0.90, 1 foldFlop:
(€3.9, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets €1.95, SB folds, BB calls €1.95Turn:
(€7.8, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets €4.05, BB calls €4.05River:
(€15.9, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets €25.98 (all-in), BB foldsTotal Pot : €41.88 (rake €0.79)
Hero wins €15.90 from Main pot
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